Introduction: The Pattern of ‘Gospel’ (Injil) in the Qur’an as a Sign from Allah

Torah not talmud, injile not gospel. this is what quran want us to believe.

i quote last paragraph.
“Why start with the books we are not sure about and which might be contaminated when we have books there for us to study (Taurat of prophet Musa pbuh) that are clearly supported by Prophet Muhammad pbuh? Why not start with Prophet Adam as Quran and Taurat describe and seek to learn?”

Ok let us start with the creation of adam. i think this is where the different really start between quran and your present bible created by st paul.

your bible said the knowledge Adam had was a curse due to his disobedient, to god command not to eat the fruit of knowledge. that sin inherited by all childen of adam, so by nature all men are sinners. so adam was created by god similar with all other god creation the only different is that he was made with the likeness of god. the god is like the roman god zeus. also your bible said god had to call adam since they were both hiding, your god do not know thing, and had to ask adam and eve why do you feel shy, before finding out that they have eaten the fruit of knowledge. is your god really not all knowing ? or is he simply play with adam that he does not know ?, why is your god have to pretend if he did?, what is this teach human, that even if we know we pretend as though that we do not know.

Quran said the intelectual blessed to adam was what made him greater than other god creations, better than angles,better than satan, but he was like new born baby can think but not knowing everything yet. so when satan persuade them he disobey god not to eat the fruit god command him not to. they did it out of curiosity,but when adam sincerely ask for forgiveness God forgive him already but like he promise they have go to earth as their punishment.
as to why satan persuade adam to eat the fruit it was because satan who did not obey god’s command to bow to adam. satan said to god who is about to punish him for his disobedient,, postpone my punishment to judgement day and i will misguide human for his quality of intelectuals given to them, god grant his wish and said you can not misguide the believers among them. i believe this conception of god suit my intelectual.

you are the first christian who said this

(ie the taurat text does not say ‘sin inherited by all childen of adam’ as you say.)

because most of christian believe so although they are not there, and there fore, human by nature is born sinner, and that,no good deed can save you from hell and the only way to go to heaven is by accepting jesus as the god the savior.

Paul did not write torah, also moses did not,they were written by moses follower. but Paul was a follower of talmud he must be familiar with torah,
since he was the man responsible of creating most part of new testament and the gathering of all pat of old testament, there is a great posibility he might have changed part of the old testament to suit his thought in new testament.

i quote wikipedia :
According to writings in the New Testament Paul, who was originally called Saul, was dedicated to the persecution of the early disciples of Jesus in the area of Jerusalem.[10] In the narrative of the book of Acts, while Paul was traveling on the road from Jerusalem to Damascus on a mission to “bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem”, the resurrected Jesus appeared to him in a great light. He was struck blind, but after three days his sight was restored by Ananias of Damascus, and Paul began to preach that Jesus of Nazareth is the Jewish Messiah and the Son of God.[11] Approximately half of the book of Acts deals with Paul’s life and works.

a man who persecuted jesus follower suddenly change his view 180 degrees.

this is what talmud believe of christ, there is more to it where it come from.

JESUS ??CHRIST IN Talmud
————————————————– ———-

P. 28 and 29: “In the Talmud, Christ is called
Otho Isch = “That Man.” “Someone called the child
as a Christian if he follows the teachings
false teachings of “the man” … (Abhodah Zarah). ”
“Akum of Maimonides (Rabbi Mozes ben Maimon,
born in Cordova, Spain; 1135-1204) shows
the fact that terlaranglah to participate in
Christian feasts of Christmas and Easter, because
It commemorates the parties Talui, someone
was hanged. ”

P. 30: “The Talmud teaches that Christ is the illegitimate child
and in the womb when a menstrual period
(was conceived during menstruation) that he is
a crazy / silly, readers spell, teasers, and
that Christ was crucified and buried in hell. ”

P. 31: “Siti Maryam called STADA, as a prostitute
because she left her husband and do
adultery. ”

P. 34: “Then Jesus called the NAME of GOD and continue
call up came the wind
lifted between earth and sky. Judas also
GREAT NAME OF GOD states and so is
lifted by the wind. Then Judas say
and took the name of the Lord Jesus and encourage
Jesus down, ie to earth. Jesus then try
to do the same to Judas and they
both were ultimately fighting. And when Judas
knowing that he can not win Jesus
then he urinated on Jesus and both are
was not sacred anymore it finally fell to the earth;
Also it can no longer they use the name
holy God again until they purify themselves
itself. “(And when Judas PBUH he could not win
over the works of Jesus he pissed on Jesus and
both being unclean fell to earth; nor could
they use the Divine name again until they had
washed Themselves). ”

Do those who believe in the lie
wicked deserve hatred or belas-
pity larger, it can not me
Say nothing.

P. 35: “In the book SANHEDRIN (107 b) we read:
‘MAR say: Jesus is persuade tempting,
corrupt and destroy Israel. ”

P. 36: “The Book of Zohar III tells us that Jesus died
like animals and buried in a pile
were so dirty where they throw
the carcasses of dogs and donkeys, and where
sons of Esau (ie Christians)
and Ismail (the Turks), ie they
unclean and uncircumcised, buried like
a dead dog. ”

P. 39: “It is not permitted (= forbidden) to submit
or take your hat off in front of the king or
pastor who wore a cross on clothing
them. Should be considered not to
otherwise it can look like
ini.Umpama one can / should throw
several pieces of coins on the ground,
then bent to pick it up before
they passed. In a case like this then
allowed for bending or lifting
hat in front of them. ”

P. 40: “A written law of the Nasara
is “If a Jew hit on
a cheek, the other also palingkanlah ”
(I’ve never seen Christians
comply with this law, so did Jesus himself
do not do it. I get on BOOK
DEEDS apostles XXIll, paragraph 3, that the Imam
Large ordered them to stand in
nearby to slap his mouth, Paul
turn the other cheek; he condemned.
This is contrary to the belief
they and undermine the foundations or principles
where their religion was upheld.

how can a man who considered himself the opponent becomes an apostle.

by making jesus as son of god who sacrifice himself voluntarily to wash sins of human kind.

this man had killed two birds with one stone.

instead of condemning the killing of jesus the prophet of god,christian no longer blame jews for what they have cruelly done to jesus and his follower, and he became a saint.

also because he know that talmud follower also believe in the final mesiah, he want to make his new teaching become accepted by some of the talmud follower.

when the last mesiah come (the king of jews) and all mankind become slaves of jews. jesus is a jew, and also paul. and the follower of jews mesiah will be the slave of jews.

i quote the above, simply to let you know that in order to find out truth we have to use our god greatest give (intelectuals), use it to find the right pathway, to support our way of life in this world and also teach us to behave for the purpose of after life.

i quote your bible genesis chapter 21.

14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.

so let say your interpretation here right although i doubt it because of the sentence.

but how can you explain the next verse.casting a child. (sixteen years old boy. may be good if he is not more than seven or nine years old top. but sixteen years ?.

15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

i bet you would also have the same explanation regarding this verse. but never mind because the translater who translate these certaintly mistaken ismael as a small child, or is he is really a small boy. that time.

18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.

now your bible always said that abraham once moved to kanaan never go back to egypt, but on the other hand, he met abimelech paraoh of egypt, to settle the dispute about the water well. found by hagar and ismael. which is was believed to be dug by abraham.
genesis chapter 21
25. And Abraham reproved Abimelech because of a well of water, which Abimelech’s servants had violently taken away.
27 And Abraham took sheep and oxen, and gave them unto Abimelech; and both of them made a covenant.

i said your bible, i am reffering to the present bible followed by christians. because you may also know that a muslim is not a muslim if he does not believe in torah and injille.

about abraham,you also know that according to your bible,he was abram not yet abraham untill he moved to kanaan. at the age of ninety nine after he moved to kanaan than he got circumcised,along with ishmael and the rest of man in the family. who was then 13 years of age.

but then quran said ismael his fist born son was supposed to be the offering to god by abraham instead of ishak.

your bible seem to get influence by talmud which said that only jews are considered man in the eyes of their god.so ismael was never abraham legitimate child.because the only son of abraham is the one he got from sara. so ishak is abraham only child.

torah is god revelation to moses but talmud is what jews rabbi think higher than torah and they consist of thought of their rabbi.

It does not mean i insisted on making claim that quran is right and your bible is wrong, the reason i studied your bible,to find out what is wrong in those two,why they some time look similar but in a whole context they are in contradiction.

since i believe muhammad is an illiterate,how could an illiterate create a book with such an amazing thought, with not even one of todays scholars can create something similar.

the only answer to that question is to learn more of the teaching background, of christian bible and torah.

ok you made clear about the date although not 100 % because torah was not written by moses, but by follower of moses. if you judge from the wording. (most gods word dictate to moses sounded the same way of the quran). but the case is not true to the entire torah. some are man addition words, you can easily judge from the wordings if you are keen enough.
and those books were written between 1312 to 1280 bc. during moses lifetime.

although you believe it to be in consistency with the death sea scroll. it is still can not be proof to be 100 % words of god.

if you are keen some verse not only you will find the wording sound different but mostly inconsistent with other chapters

the quotation below may help you to confirm it.:

Jews believe that God dictated the Torah to Moses on Mount Sinai 50 days after their exodus
from Egyptian slavery. They believe that the Torah shows how God wants Jews to live. It

contains 613 commandments and Jews refer to the ten best known of these as the ten 10 commandments

On that day, G-d revealed Himself to the entire Jewish people (which included some 600,000
adult men, in addition to women, children and the aged) and declared to them the Ten Commandments. Afterwards, Moses ascended Mount Sinai where, for forty days, G-d taught him

the entire Written and Oral Torah. Later, on Yom Kippur, Moses descended with the second

tablets of the Ten Commandments and began to teach the people what he heard from G-d on
Mount Sinai.statements.

the teaching of moses has no religious name. never mention any religion in all those words of god never mention a religion at all, it was only teaching of god to the jews so it was called Judaism.

as far as i know from this torah (old testament of your bible), the best part for paul to show christian (again christian is not a religion), about the godhood of jesus is from the isaiah chapter 53. because it is believed to be closed to devine his divinity.

but of course jews will not agree to that. why ?
1. the first two verses of this chapter can not be refrering to jesus.
53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

because you believe jesus is god this refer to human who believe in the teaching of god. whose god arms are around him.

the second verse is even further from jesus, because jesus was accepted by many jews and his desciples, how can he be described as human garbage, with nothing to see from him to be of interest.

2. the following verses :
53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

this is not jesus, because these are referring to jew who was sacrificed during the jews exodus, to those captured, and tortured, but kept their mouth shut, not to reveal the whereabout of the other jews.

because jesus open his mouth crying to lord during his crucifixion. he did not shut his mouth.

3 and the last verse how could it be jesus :
53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

it is referring to the jew hero not jesus, because if you believe he is god, why is he only given part not whole portion of great.

4. christian seem to forget the previous chapter 52.which was talking exactly about jews rebellion against their slavery in egypt for centuries until moses finally come as their mesiah.

how can jesus fit to this he was not even there in time of moses.

those you believe in the new testament as you know most of them are works of paul. to support his theory in the first place. and whenever your church try to judge what is already in the bible and new scripture found they always use the same bench mark, so to determine the holiness of your bible, is not the question that it was the result of filtration but the filter it self must be questioned.

Hello brother Ragnar,

I am sorry for my previous words if any of them offended you. I can see that you are a person good to be an opponent, in an intellectual debate. although my words have been quite harsh, but you are commenting it like a true christian, with out showing your emotion. so i believe we can really be a good friend although we have different view towards each other’s opinion.

I am sorry i disagree with your example of disagreement between sunni and syiah both sunni and syiah never have any misunderstanding about al quran. but they may have misunderstanding about hadiths, as you know their real different is actually in their leaders. one leader insist in more hadiths to practice islam like the old days during Muhammad timeline, and some of them rely on their leaders interpretation of hadiths.

I my self think that how can we follow exactly like what practice in muhammad time line, fore instance Muhammad and his follower used to do shalah even while they were still in war. with todays modern technology, how could you do that.

but i understand the dispute between Jews and christian is not on the old testament, they are kept the way it is by both. but simply in interpretation.

what i mean is although your old testament is the same as torah,but torah compare to quran, has been changed. from the original. and about your new testament, quran only acknowledge us that nothing of the teaching of torah ever been changed by Jesus (Prophet of Allah),it was only meant to confirmed what was in torah and deny parts that was not in there in the first place. but your today new testament was not even wrote by jesus 11 desciples mostly the work of paul who never even met jesus in his life time.

let me give you an example of what have been changed in torah. in comparison to al quran.

Genesis chapter 1 verse:
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

these verse were in contradiction to chapter 2. where it was talking about creation of ADAM.

if the above verses, were really there, that would mean God created man before Adam to inhabit earth. because in chapter two adam was created to inhabit heaven.

it would mean that adam was not the first man on earth.

in comparison with alquran, al quran never said that god is like man. in fact quran said 99 names of Allah, to show his mights, and that Allah is indescribable with anything in the universe. and torah in some part also agree with this. when jews want to see god they only saw thunder and lightning.

logically speaking the description of god in quran is easily understandable, if god almighty is the creator of the universe from nothingness he must be greater than his creation, so it is easy to accept.

but describing god physical form like human, is to far from logic, why ?

we all know that it is not our physical form that make man the dominator of the earth. as a matter of fact in terms of physical form human could be the weakest among animals. for instance man is not as strong as horse, man is not as fast as leopard, or elephant, and man is even lower in comparison with frog, that can live underwater and above earth, or birds that could fly, and even not as strong as an ant which can lift 3 times of its body weight. even monkey is better than human in survival of the fittest if with out his intellectuals.

so believing that God physical condition is as weak as man is not logical. because it is never our physical form, that make human great it is always our intellectuals and fellings and free will. so human can create tools that could cover up human’s physical weakness,to be a dominant race on earth.